Interviewer: Hi Ed, so yeah, really good to see you today and thank you for taking the time to speak. So for the people who obviously perhaps don't know you or the work you're doing, it'd be great if you maybe just introduce yourself first, who you are, what you're working on and a little bit more about your company.
Ed: Yeah, so I'm Ed, I'm a founder at LIGO and at LIGO we're basically building deep learning models for enzyme design. So we're trying to design enzymes completely from scratch, including all the active sites for new problems in biology.
Interviewer: Great. So of course, like you guys are working on a really important problem issue, but I wanted to actually speak to you because you have a very compelling story because of course you did iGEM when you were at Oxford for your time in medicine and you actually met some of your co-founders there, if I'm correct. So I would love to learn a little bit more about, you know, those early seeds about, you know, starting in your iGEM experience and how you met your co-founders. And yeah, just tell me more about your time at iGEM.
Ed: Yeah. So yeah, I did iGEM in my second year and we were working on biosensors. And basically, I'd always been interested in entrepreneurship. I'd always been interested in bioengineering and started doing iGEM and met my co-founder very quickly in iGEM in Oxford. We basically hit off straight away did the whole iGen program together and then carried on talking throughout the program and beyond about different bioengineering problems that we thought were interesting and one of the areas we've been working on in inside the iGen program was protein design so at that time we were using some of the models released by the Baker Lab and some of the research released by the Baker Lab and this got us kind of interested in designing different biomolecules. And so we carried on that research together, met our other co-founder and our family engineer, and basically carried on building in this realm of designing biomolecules. But all of that started in iGEM. All of that started very early in iGEM. Yeah.
Interviewer: That makes lots of sense. So could you tell me a little bit more about maybe like the project you guys worked on in iGEM and maybe like how, you know, working with your co-founders via iGEM led you to, well, I guess working with your teammates via iGEM led you to maybe becoming future co-founders together?
Ed: Yeah, so in iGEM we were working on these biosensors. So the Baker lab had designed these modular biosensors that basically allowed you to add a small binding region to their modular system and it would sense any molecule that you could bind to. So I think at the time we were working on just sensing E. coli. So we would design E. coli binders, attach them to the modular biosensor and then be able to detect E. coli from that. The idea was that you could use this technology to go beyond and detect all sorts of different things. And a lot of that was thanks to the research that the BakeLab did in designing this kind of system that could detect things in a modular way. I think that kind of taught me how, like, that research that the BakeLab was doing really showed that you could start to engineer biology in interesting ways and build systems at the molecular level. And so that kind of just like stemmed this like interest in more and more systems. Like what systems could we start to design or could we design these proteins in a better way? And so it kind of like sparked this interest in bringing engineering into biology, which which is kind of what LIGO is built off now.
Interviewer: That's great. So you guys worked on a really interesting project. And then obviously you thought that you wanted to actually like build a company. So maybe tell me a little bit more about that process of deciding you wanted to build a company and, you know, those early steps of, you know, of course you guys applied to YC and got in and then decided to pursue that. So talk me through that transition from becoming a student to a founder.
Ed: Yeah. So I guess, yeah, A lot of the initial work was funded by grants from people like Google. So Google would give you grants to do some, give you like compute grants so that you had enough compute to go and train small models. And so Arda was doing a lot of this research in protein models funded by Google very early on. We then needed to basically raise some initial money to go and do other research outside of just computational stuff. And so we started looking at lots of opportunities. And before we managed to get one, we had loads of failures. I mean, one of the big ones was three weeks before we got YC, we applied for a 3K grant as part of like an Oxford program and completely flunked it and didn't get it got rejected for 3k and then a month later we got into YC and had 500k wired to our bank and so I think it seems like a lot of people see it as like this like smooth progression but actually we just like applied to lots of different grants applied to lots of different programs got rejected by most of them and then got picked up by one in our case we were lucky because that one was YC and YC gives you a very big initial check. But it was very much like a scrappy start where we're just trying to get any grant, any funding we can to try and pursue this vision of bringing more modern deep learning practices to biology. And then we got into YC and YC kind of like accelerated things a lot. So YC basically allowed us to move to San Francisco. It gave us a big network over here in San Francisco. And it made us just move so much quicker because we had the money to not worry about saving every penny. We had the mentors to kind of like tell us what is most important to work on. And that basically allowed us to accelerate things much quicker and get to the point where we could raise a large seed round.
Interviewer: Great. So of course I can imagine that, you know, going to SF and, n, meeting all those people would have been, you know, a really interesting opportunity and experience at the time. So could you tell me a little bit more about your experience at YC and maybe raising your first round? What were you, you know, maybe some of the biggest lessons that you've learned from that, that you might want to like share with current iGEM students?
Ed: Yeah. So I think, The lesson that YC and San Francisco in general taught me was how important it is to be helping people around you and people helping you. There's a very big community in San Francisco of just everyone helping everyone and lifting everyone up. And that didn't really happen in the UK as much. In the US, people will introduce you to the right people. People will be willing to give you feedback and advice. And so like people all did that for us at LIGO. And like we had huge amounts of help from all kinds of different people, whether that's investors, whether that's other founders, whether that's just like mentors or people in high places. In America, people really, really help each other. And so like one of the biggest lessons for me is just like to pay that forward and like help other people. I speak to lots of founders about how to raise and things like that. So I think that ethos is very big in San Francisco. And then YC also teaches you to just move insanely quickly. Like, don't worry about wasting and don't worry about like messing up. Just give it a go and move as quickly as you can because that's your biggest advantage as a small company. And so, yeah, I guess it's like community and moving very, very quickly are the two big lessons they taught me. And also I think for people outside of the US I think YC teaches you to be insanely confident about what you're doing like we came to YC we were like super European super like not bragging about many things and YC teaches you to like shout from the rooftops about who you are about why you're able to build this about like your background and things like that so I think one of the biggest things is just having the confidence to like really big yourself up and like make sure people know why you guys are going to be the ones to build this company. And that's the same with like everything. That's not just for raising. That's also for when you go into a customer meeting, you have to like act like you're meant to be there. And I think YC taught us a lot of that, taught us to like make sure we feel like we deserve to be there. And that transforms things because I think a lot of customer interactions and investor interactions it's just signals and just people like seeing if you like seem like you know your stuff. And so you better act like you know your stuff. And Serby, our group partner, was very good at that. Like she would sit us down and be like, guys, you're acting too nervous. Like you need to you need to be more confident. You need to say X, Y and Z. So that was another another big lesson, I think.
Interviewer: So I'd love to go more in depth around that whole thing with sending those signals, right? Because obviously coming out of undergrad, I can imagine that must have been a big steep learning curve. And I can imagine that's probably a learning curve for lots of people who might be going into entrepreneurship after iGEM or after undergrad. So what would you say is the way to like help build those signals, right? Like how do you get that credibility across to, you know, potential vendors or buyers or whatever, or clients?
Ed: Yeah, so I think there's a few things. I think A lot of the time, you often have these signals. So some of these signals you already have and you just need to be more vocal about. For example, when we arrived at YC, you had to give a two-minute pitch in front of the whole cohort. So this is like hundreds of people. And we gave our pitch and Serby stopped us in the middle of the audience and said, guys, what are you doing? This is in front of everyone. She's like, you haven't mentioned you're from Oxford. You haven't mentioned you've researched this before. You haven't mentioned you're funded by Google. Like, why are you guys hiding every cool thing about yourself? And so I think like a lot of people don't kind of realize that they've actually done things that are valuable already and they should be voicing those. And a lot of people, like I found at Oxford, a lot of people don't realize that Oxford's a big deal. Like, I feel like we kind of get taught that like Oxford's very normal. You're in Oxford and there's always people who are smarter than you in Oxford. So you kind of forget to brag about Oxford. But the fact you went to Oxford, the fact you've done research at Oxford, that kind of thing is important. And so a lot of us already have these signals and you just need to like learn to word them in the right way, learn to get them across. And then secondly, I think doing work in public. So I think as young founders, it's important to like, be doing work in the open, whether that's open source work or just like publishing blogs about your work or getting papers done. Like the more you can get out there and the more proof of work you can have, the better. So for us, a really important part of our race was we open sourced one of Google's models. So Google had this closed source model, we provided an open source implementation, released that. And so investors could see that like, okay, they've built this pretty advanced model, and everyone's talking about it. So then straight away, that's a big signal. But it doesn't just have to be code, right? Like you can be doing other work in the open, you can be talking about your work more and I think we don't do that enough in bio. In bio, we think like the only way to get recognition for your work is through a paper. And I actually think people should just be talking about their work more. People should be writing more blogs. People should be taking more of a B2B SaaS kind of approach to this, especially as young founders, because it's insanely hard to get that initial credibility. And so the best way is just to be talking about what you're doing more.
Interviewer: That makes a lot of sense. So of course you guys worked on that open source model and that was picked up by the press and had lots of really good reception around it. Would you like to tell me a little bit more about maybe the thought process around how did you guys first find that opportunity and noticed that gap that, okay, we need to do this? And why did you guys feel you were the right team to start building that open source model?
Ed: Yeah, so I guess we were kind of at the start of YC and YC basically tell you at the start, you've got to do something in three months. If you don't do something cool in three months, you're not going to raise. And so they're like, find something cool to do in three months. For a B2B SaaS company, it's like more easy. You can grow growth, you can grow revenue. For deep tech companies, it's a bit harder because we want to do enzymes. We're not going to solve enzyme design in three months. So what can we do in three months? And so we were kind of brainstorming. Google had recently released this paper explaining that the Alpha 3 model had these incredible results. And so it was kind of good timing because they'd released this, but they hadn't released the code. And that was kind of like a big, a lot of people in science were annoyed about that. A lot of people were annoyed that Nature had published this paper and not release the code because in normal scientific publications you have to make sure it's reproducible and like how is the paper not reproducible if you haven't released the code like how can anybody reproduce that it took us three months to write the code like your average scientist isn't going to take three months to write the code so that paper isn't reproducible and so a lot of people felt like nature had caved to google and basically allowed them to publish without doing this without having the normal reproducibility standards. And so we thought it was a good opportunity to play off this kind of anger that a lot of people had and release the code. And we also thought it was a good contribution to the field. So then we released the code. The thing that kind of blew it up a little bit more was Arda had found some errors in the pseudocode. Like they're pretty simple errors in terms of they were like typos, but they meant that people couldn't, they meant this paper definitely wasn't reproducible because even the pseudocode describing the code wasn't right. And it meant that the code wouldn't even train. And so we kind of just saw this opportunity of a bit of an emotional example in scientific publishing that was kind of at the right time for us to release. We didn't know if it was possible. Like we really didn't know how long this would take, but Arda kind of took it on and just grinded out three months. And that was all done by one engineer. Like another engineer joined at the very end, but the majority of the work was done by Arda and Arda alone. And so we I think it's surprising how much you can get done if you just focus on one thing for three months. And that was Arda's only thing he was really responsible for three months was like getting this model out. But there was no like planning, like, are we definitely going to be able to do this in three months? It was like a lot of like, let's go for it, see how it goes. And by luck, it was like a week before fundraising, we finished it. The last like two weeks, every morning, Arda would wake up. He'd code for the day and then he'd be like, right, I think I've done the final version. I think it's ready. We'd train it and there'd be spikes. There'd be errors in the training. And he'd be like, damn, like, okay, I've got a new solution. Tomorrow it'll be ready. And this happened like 30 times over the course of the last few weeks. And then finally we had a model that trained. We could release it. But like there was no planning. It was kind of just all give it a go and it worked out. But that was all, like a lot of that was luck of timing.
Interviewer: really brilliant and you know I guess you've got to take those opportunities right when you find them so it's a bit of luck but you also I guess make your own luck in that sense so that's brilliant so of course when you raised and you know we're super successful in that it's been some time I guess since you had that initial raise would you like me to maybe just catch us up and like you know what you've been working on since and how has that journey been post YC?
Ed: Yes so we After YC, we basically had a few months of just like sorting out our visas so we could move to the US and like that was quite painful and it looks like it's getting more and more painful to move to the US but we grinded that out for a while. We had a few issues there and then we basically moved to the US, got our new office and we're setting up our lab. So we're installing a lab in our office, validating our models, so we can have this like very tight iteration cycle of like build the model, train the model, test the model in the lab and then keep iterating like that. Over the past year most of the work has been on the models themselves and so we've been building protein design models that specifically work for enzyme design. We've had some exciting results, we haven't released any of those results quite yet but things look positive and We're hopefully releasing some more interesting open source stuff in the future. Yeah, things are going well. Things are finally getting set up for good in San Francisco. And soon we'll be able to test our own proteins in-house rather than sending them to some CRO. Great.
Interviewer: So I guess I think this is a really good point to talk about, obviously the lab-based stuff, because I think the thing with biotech is, of course, you have to navigate all this regulation and timeline and capital intensiveness to actually do things in the lab. But then, of course, you guys are also very much working on a model that is used for biology. So how do you like straddle the two? And also, you know, how do you approach that strategy-wise in terms of, you know, approaching lab work in-house?
Ed: Yeah. So I think the advice I got from lots of founders who have done this, this before was focused on doing one thing in house. Like you really don't need to be the people who do the DNA synthesis, do the code on optimization, do the proteins and cysts, and then whatever, you can just do one of those things. And so our thing is we want to be able to see if our proteins work. And so to start with the one thing we're going to do in house is the assay. We're just, and to start with, it's only going to be light-based assays, right? It's going to be plate readers. And so the advice I got was like, it's expensive to outsource stuff, but it's more expensive to move super slowly to set up all these equipment, to set up all this equipment, to get all the regulations, to do everything in-house. And so just do one thing. And so that's kind of what we're doing. We're just focusing on these plate reader-based assays to start with, and then we'll move on to more advanced techniques in the future. But that basically removes a load of the regulation and it removes a load of the painstaking work because it takes like expertise to do very good protein synthesis. It takes expertise to do DNA synthesis, whatever. And some people used to try and do all of this in one place and all of this in-house. Actually, we find it better to get the experts to do what they're good at and become experts in one area. And so that's the way we're kind of thinking about it. Yeah.
Interviewer: That makes a lot of sense. And then also, I guess, in terms of setting up your lab, I can imagine that's a very long runway to get started so how did you kind of approach that um i guess i assume that it was relatively doable because i guess it's such a big focus on getting the software um to a point where you're ready to make lab work but do you have any advice for other you know teams that are going into biotech because obviously it's a big hurdle that they often face?
Ed: Yeah. So we thought it was important to have our lab right by our computational team. So it would have been super easy to go and like set up in a pre-built lab. Some of them aren't too expensive in San Francisco. They do everything for you. So there is that route. Like if you're completely lab focused, probably the route is to go into one of these startup incubator lab spaces and just get going. For us, we felt like the reason we need the lab is to make sure the computational team have deep understanding of the wet lab team and the wet lab team having deep understanding of the computational team. And we want that interaction. That was hard in those shared lab spaces. And so we decided to do it ourselves. That makes it a lot harder. And the way we got around that was we just sort of sought advice from people who had done it before. And in San Francisco, those people will give you they'll sit with you for hours and tell you exactly what you're going to come up against and exactly how you need to get across it. And they basically made it 10 times easier to do to get the correct zoning, to get the correct permits in place, all of that kind of stuff that was only possible because of these people that help us do that. And so I'd basically say, seek advice from people who have done similar stuff in the future. Find a company that's done assays only in the lab and ask them how they did it. And often it's like, people make it sound like it's going to be the hardest thing ever. Actually, if you find someone who's done it before, like, the harder thing was just figuring out what regulation you actually needed. Getting the regulation isn't too difficult. It's just filtering out what's noise and what's actually useful. And so, yeah, I think the biggest thing for us was like getting advice from people who are five years ahead of us and letting, like asking them to walk us through what hurdles we're going to come up against.
Interviewer: That makes a lot of sense. And I guess it's useful that you have that strategy of like being able to have your computation in the lab stuff together. So I would love to learn a little bit more about obviously what you guys are doing at LIGO in terms of commercialization. So do you want to tell a bit more about the business strategy around how you want to sell the work you're doing?
Ed: Yeah. So I think it's still kind of open the final direction we will go. And a lot of that's like an open debate with our customers. What would be most useful for them? And what would they like to keep in house? In bio, the hardest thing is figuring out the incentives because a lot of people... pharma companies especially, but we're finding enzyme companies as well, want to keep all of that IP in-house and they don't want to show you ever. And so in that case it'd be better to let them use their model themselves. The issue there is like it takes some expertise and some understanding of how to use the model. Even if you create a beautiful interface, it's better to have someone who's got experience using these models. So we either have this way of renting out the model itself and We could also design in-house and sell the IP to those enzymes directly, or we could make our own assets in-house. And I think right now we're going for a mixture. I think we need like a cash cow that's gonna fund our research of like either selling the model or selling the IP to enzymes. And probably that's gonna be selling the model itself. And we have some big pilot customers using that model right now. And then I think we're gonna create our own assets. and right now we're interested in a few different things. I can give an example of one of them is thinking about manufacturing these these GRP1s like Ozempic. These new peptide drugs are probably going to become the norm. We're moving more towards treating people who don't have maybe traditional what's seen as a traditional disease like with Ozempic we're treating not only people who have severe obesity but we're also treating people who maybe want a lifestyle medication to to reduce their weight um and so i think pharma is going to move more and more into this consumer drug space um and so peptide drugs is going to boom they're already doing 50 billion dollars a year uh in sales and as we expand to more and more different uh disease targets it'll probably increase significantly um And we're already seeing that these drugs have efficacy in lots of different areas that we didn't think they previously did. The issue is manufacturing these drugs is insanely hard. They use this thing called solid-phase peptide synthesis. It uses some of the most toxic reagents to manufacture these drugs. It's difficult to do, it's complex, and it's super expensive. And so one of the set of assets we're looking at making in-house is, okay, can we create some enzymes to either do modifications of these peptides to make the actual peptide itself easier to manufacture? Or can we start to manufacture a whole peptide? Now, these kinds of projects will take longer, like five years, a decade, that kind of timeframe, but they're way more valuable. And the And that's kind of what would make your company a billion dollar company. The model stuff will bring in cash, but it's harder to capture a lot of that value because the companies want to keep their own IP.
Ed: And so a lot of that will be like just stress testing our model in-house. So the next goalpost will be seeing what else our model can design, seeing what enzymes our model can design. And that will be in the next few months, hopefully.
Interviewer: Super excited. So I guess there's so much work being happening around drug design, enzyme design, and just using AI for biology and for design. And of course, a lot of that is happening in academic labs and then also all of these new industry labs coming out of DeepMind or just lots of people that are rapidly spinning out or making new startups at different stages of credibility as well in their individual careers as founders. So how do you feel competing with these different groups almost and I guess, how do you advise iGen teams that might be coming out of undergrad to approach that space? Because so many biotechs are often being spinning out of PhD research. And so how do you feel about that experience?
Ed: Yeah, so I think it's getting more and more exciting that basically a lot of people are working in this AI for bio space. I think that's a great thing, right? Like I think the more people in this space, it is good. There's a lot of collaboration and sharing of research, which is great for the space as a whole. I think there's some amazing companies starting up, particularly in the drug discovery space. You've obviously got Isomorphic Labs, you've got Tri Discovery. All of these companies are doing some incredible research, right? And getting some great results. I don't really see those people as competition right now. I guess we're just working in different industries, working on similar technologies, but working on different industries. But I think the bigger thing is, like, even if I saw them as competition, I think in bio, your biggest competition is really yourself. Like, I strongly believe that You just have to go and get your technology to work. And that's all you should really care about. Whereas in B2B SaaS, you do really need to worry about competition. You need to worry about how to beat them. I think in bio, you should just try and build cool technology and try and get it to the market. Because the thing that will kill you is that you're running out of money and you're not bringing any money in. It probably won't be the competition that kills you. So yeah, I think that that's important. I also think in enzymes, there's very few people building their own models. And I think see it as important to actually go out and build and design your own models, train your own models and have real control over those models and understanding of how those models work. And so I think that's why we think we're in a strong position, whereas a lot of other companies are using models that are currently out there and the models that are currently out there just aren't really good enough to do enzyme design beyond simple enzymes. I think it would be similar advice I give to iGEM teams. There's a lot of people starting companies. I think that shows you that the barrier to entry is lower than it's ever been. And I think that's a good thing. Like, I think that means undergrads, master's students, PhDs can go and start companies and they should give it a go. Before, starting a buyer company is relatively hard because you've got to raise a lot of money. Now you can prove things out pretty cheaply. And so I think that's a good thing. I think IGNT should have more confidence that they can build cool things that will be important and they can sell and they should go and raise money. But the thing VCs and initial investors care about isn't really early stage isn't really the results you've got. It's more, are you an incredible team? Are you the team to build this? And so what you should focus on is like doing something cool so that you can show you're a great team and you can build cool technology, going to raise off that and then using that to build something that is interesting for customers. I think too much young founders worry about like, making the perfect product that VCs are going to love whereas actually the VC is just looking for signals and like looking for how good you are as a founding team how technical you are your previous track record that kind of thing yeah it's a sense and I think that nicely goes into my next question which is actually going to be about what are the key pieces of advice you'd give to iDream people who want to go into entrepreneurship and I guess you've touched on a couple of those there I guess the other thing then in terms of advice would be the balance between research and you know developing your product as fast as possible and as best as possible versus obviously focusing on the business and strategy and commercialization aspects. So how do you approach that balance and how would you advise agent teams that are going into entrepreneurship for the first time to start thinking about business because they might have never thought about business before?
Ed: Yeah I actually think like maybe this is Not the advice most people would give to buyer companies, but I would say buyer companies should have business strategies more like B2B SaaS. Maybe that's like the wrong advice. I don't know. But for us, it was important, especially as young founders, to prove that people cared about what you're building. And so I think the YC advice is go out and try and sell your technology before you've completed your technology. Like fine, you might have some initial results or research towards this technology, but go sell that dream to customers, right? Maybe not for actual cash, maybe just for letters of intent or maybe just for references or whatever, but you should really go and like start selling your product before you've finalized everything because one you need to find out if customers actually want you what you're building two you need to prove that to investors um and so i'd say take a leaf out of like more traditional business books here and go and get those initial contacts get those initial people in big companies excited about what you're building before you've done the research and then once you've raised money you can just focus on research you want to get raising done as quickly as possible so you don't have to worry about it and you can just get back to research um And I think most of what they do is they spend too long researching initially when they have no resources. So it takes 10 times as long as it should. Whereas instead, they should go and find interest in in their product interest in from vcs that want to uh that want to back them and then go and do the bulk amount of research after that right now the bar to raise small rounds is is low and you can go and get some funding to go research something cool for a few years like i think phds are very useful and to be honest like it would have been cool to have done more research before i started ligo i think i would have been better prepared uh but at the same time Right now, there's another route than doing a PhD. You can just go and try and convince an investor to give you money to go and research and build something cool. And basically, you can just do a PhD in a private company by yourself. It needs to be a bit more commercially minded. But realistically, the research we're doing at LIGO is as if we're doing a PhD. And to be honest, it's a bit more, I'd say, slightly better than a PhD because we're well-funded, we have lots of compute, we have full control about what we want to research, how we want to take things. And also when research doesn't work, we can just move on. We don't have to like dwell on it for too long. And so I do think people should consider more like doing in effect a privately funded PhD at their startup. And now is a good time to do that, especially if you have a background in AI and can apply AI to some biological problem. And right now there's like all sorts of people working on all sorts of problems within biology that use AI. So I think now's a good time to start.
Interviewer: Great so my final question would be is there anything else you want to say? Is there anything else you want to share in his advice but also about your story in LIGO that you think is important?
Ed: Yeah I think it's a good question I guess like it's way more scrappy than it looks like every single company is way more scrappy than it looks and like I know people say this but it's like you don't really realize it until you're doing it like nobody's got things worked out you meet or CEOs of these big companies and like even they don't really have it worked out so like you should stop stressing about having things worked out and just like go full steam ahead see how it works pivot change whatever um but like nobody has anything worked out we're working these things out like I don't know anything about building a lab but in the next few weeks we're going to try and build a lab um I'm not an expert on that. So like, I think it's like expertise in some cases is, is overrated because you should just be like getting that expertise from, from your network. And I think as an undergrad, I thought like it would be years away to go and found something. But when you start speaking to enough founders, you realize that just, just people are just winging it and you should just wing it too. And I think, yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. Just got to do it.
Interviewer: That was really good and a really useful conversation. And I'm sure, you know, whoever's listening and learning got a lot out of it. So thank you so much and good luck with everything you're doing at LIGO and can't wait to see the next big thing. So yeah, see you soon.
Ed: No worries. See you soon.